The Business of Music with Kym Swain

0:00 Hey, y 'all, we're tuning in for another episode of Bankedoutt Radio Show. I'm your host, Andreas, and this is Music and Business Talk, and I have, via Zoom, we have Kim Swain, who is a recording artist out here, independent recording artist, I would like to add, and then also has been developing and building an international audience. So we'd like to get into that, but Kim. One thing I want the audience to know is like, you know, a brief background, like, you know, how you got started in the music industry, like why even do the music industry with all the different things that's going on? And then, you know, you took a break and then what was that resurgence of, you know, wanting to get back out there? Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here talking to you. I've been in the music industry my whole life at some capacity. I've always sang since I was a little girl. I used to sing in my great grandmother's hallway. She had like a nice acoustic hallway in the projects, you know, the cement walls. And, you know, whenever I came home from school, that was my thing to do because I was the only kid. So I would just watch Mike Douglas with her and whoever performed, I would go in the hallway and put on a show and she would give me free reign to do it. And also as a child, I have to thank my mom because she just instilled any creativity in us. You know, my mother and my father were both extremely creative people. My mother was a dancer, but she was also a logistics person. You know, she was an accountant.

1:25 And my dad, he was an artist, but he loved music. He also, he was a curator. He worked for Sotheby's in New York. So I was surrounded by art and great things from a young age that my father taught me about. Like, you know, we were looking at historic art. We had historic art in our home, in the hood. Like I had Jones Crawford's coffee table in my living room. And that was one of the things. that we were very careful, you know, because with our living room, you know, and the black family, you don't go in the living room, you watch, you know, only when we have company. And that's how it was. So we were taught to respect certain things, but my parents had different religious backgrounds. You know, my mother had gotten, had become a Jehovah's Witness at that time. And my dad was like a Black Panther, Black power, free, forward -thinking Renaissance man in every way you can think of. And he was not, he was not down with that. Now his family, they would go get it. They were Harlem runners, boxers from Philly. My father was originally from Philadelphia, Sound of Philadelphia. So he grew up with all kinds of music and like some real high rollers who were independent players. My grandmother and her family, they owned stores in Bed -Stuy.

2:34 They owned properties in Bed -Stuy. They had number houses and restaurants. And, you know, my father was surrounded by that. So whenever he would take me down to my grandmother's house in Bed -Stuy, I would sing. And his sister, my aunt, she was very, very involved in the church in Mount Sinai Baptist Church. And she was like that homegirl everybody loved. She wore the latest fashions, but she was that big sister in the church, in the choir. And one day she heard me singing, and she was the one who really got me in the professional field. She's the one that told me how to use my voice professionally. And one day I remember, she just heard me singing around the house. And I think I was combing her hair or something. And she said, my nickname is Nerdy. And she was like, Nerdy, you can sing.

3:21 And I was like, oh yeah, I love to sing, you know, and she just came, no, you can sing. And from that point, it wasn't like about, you can sing, that's nice. It was about, you can sing, you gotta work. It's time to get you to work. We're gonna put that voice to work. And she took me down to the church, took me down to Mount Sinai Baptist Church, took me in front of Alfred and Albert Jamieson, who were the directors, and still to this day, Albert Jamieson is the head pastor of that church, and he worked very heavily with James Cleveland. At that time, Tribal Mass Choir was touring from Philadelphia all over the country, singing with some of the greatest gospel musicians in the world. As a matter of fact, Questlove was in one of the performances because his father, they had a church that I was able to after my aunt got me in the choir and they heard me. They said, oh, you are an alto soprano. They got me in there. I was singing.

4:16 They would pitch me up. I was like, I don't want to go up that high. I was like, you got it. And I remember we got bused off to Philadelphia. And I had the opportunity, me and a bunch of other kids in the Junior Mass Choir to sing a backup for the Reverend James Cleveland. And I believe Questlove was there playing drums. He had his afro. And there was a lot of kids there in that group that it was just an honor. I mean, we were there all night singing from like 3 o 'clock in the afternoon to about 4 o 'clock in the morning. And it was just a joy. It was so much fun. And I just remember learning how to sing different notes, singing different harmonies, how to ad -lib, how to use my voice in different ways. And from that point on, I think. Like later on, my sister had a best friend whose little sister was a year older than me.

5:02 And she was in a gifted program at a school called Philippa Schuyler, Middle School for the Gifted and Talented in Brooklyn. It was one of the best schools you could get into for arts in Brooklyn at that time. And it was run by a black woman called Miss Boyce. And she, I got accepted. One day my sister came home and said, listen, my friend, her little sister sings and she's in all of these contests. She's singing all over the place. You could do it too. I was like, I'm not mad. I was used to coming home, going outside, watching videos, singing to the records and just doing my homework. I was always a writer. So I was always writing and reading in my room, but. And during that time, my parents had just separated. I had a real rough year. And when I was trying to evolve and around 11 years old, I went down there and I met. with my sister's friends and her mom. And I remember the day I walked in the door, the mom was at her piano.

5:56 She was the director of a gospel church in our community. And my sister's best friend was there. And they all went to Eridam Murrow High School together. And the younger sister, her name is Rosalyn Brown. To this day, she's a great actress. She's a great performer. She performed all over the world. What happened here? I lost you. There you go. So when I got there, as soon as I walked in the door, they were so happy and kind and meet me. Oh, nerdy. We heard all about you. And the mother brought me over to the piano. And she said, I want to hear you sing. She said, tell me some of your favorite songs. I was like, well, I don't know that many church songs. I was like, but she said, you know, Ben? And I was like, oh, by Michael Jackson? She said, yes. She pulled up the music, started playing Ben. Mm -hmm. I learned it really quickly and I sang it and she said you got this She said you need to be in this how Jackson town to teen content It was the one thing if I showed up one thing led to another and I okay So I didn't think I was even I said I'll do it but I didn't think I was ready for even that and these all the things that led to where I am now because It made great relationships for me You know, I met some people that to this day, I'm very close with Hal Jackson's wife, Debbie Jackson, who was the music director, programmer, director for WBLS. She was his co -host for years, over 20 years on WBLS. And she's also one of the curators of Hal Jackson's talented teens. And that's how I met her. So Roz told me I need to audition. uh that was my first time riding on the train as a alone so my mother said well if she thinks you can do it you go ahead ros you know ross had like a grown spirit she

7:27 was very advanced craze and very professional and she said okay we're going to this is what's going to happen she told me she said don't be scared you got this you could just sing just open your mouth and sing and i was like okay So I got there and waited on line, filled out all of these girls, all of these amazing girls from music and art, dance and ballerina. I'm like, I can't do this. These girls are super talented, man. And she said, stop thinking that way. So I went in the room and I remember it was my turn. And I went in the room and the piano player started playing this elaborate thing. And I was like, I started singing and I waited. And after that, they don't tell you anything. You know, you just go back in the auditorium and it's OK. We'll get everybody to hear from us. You know, and that was it. Forgot about it.

8:14 Went to school. I ended up making it into Philippa Skyler. I got passed the test. My mother came home one day and she was smoking a cigarette, just came home from work and came into my bedroom just as casual as I said. You made it. You made it into the school. She flipped it out. She said, you? Congratulations. I was like, I made it. She said, big announcement at my elementary school about me. And it was like the first time anybody even knew I was doing anything. They were all, I was surprised when I got my graduation from elementary school that they announced that. So that same year, it was my first opportunity to be in Howe Jackson. I didn't place, but I did such a good job that Howe Jackson and then they talked about me the next day on the radio. And then they gave me the opportunity. I came back a second year, and I did a song by Gladys Knight.

9:05 Well, it's originally by Barbara Streisand called The Way We Were. And I became friends with a lot of my friend, Roz's friend. By this time, she's in music and art. She had made it into LaGuardia High School. And her friends became my friends. And they coached me. They developed me. I would hang out with them. It was just like fame And I got on that stage and I killed it. I got a stand -in ovation, but I didn't win But that taught me that you don't always have to win. Yeah the win And um, yeah, it developed some great relationships. I moved on from that when I went to college I started taking some music programs and some business programs and my college professor. I was uh That uh, I had he um ended up putting me in a jazz ensemble He loved my voice. I had like a different voice.

9:54 I had a deep voice I had a smoky voice and he put me in another young lady named Cynthia Williamson together and she's one of my best friends when my dear friends to this day we ended up performing at Lincoln Center. What is it? The Metropolitan Opera. And then he gave me an opportunity to sing for the Martha Graham School. And there was this young sister that was performing a solo. I don't know how big this is, or who Martha Graham is. But at that time, I knew who Martha Graham was, but I didn't know what to expect. So they sent me down to CBS Networks. to meet with this old Jewish man in his home, his apartment on Park Avenue somewhere. And I was like, what is this man going, why they sending me here? This man, what am I getting ready to do with him?

10:40 And he was a program director and a specific sound director for Broadway and plays and for theater. I had to sing this song, the girl, it was specific. You know, one thing about me, I know how to take instruction. And I think that's why I was able to get these positions because when you tell me to do something, and that's with anything, I would do it. If I can't do it right, I'm going to fix it. You know, I'm going to get it right. So I got there and I recorded this song. It was called Lord, How Come Me Here? And she did an impression, a dance to it, but it was all acapella. It was no music. And, um, it was a very emotional song. It was like, Lord, how come me here? You know what I mean? You know, screaming and hollering and she, and I did it.

11:26 She's got to stand ovation. And that was my first, um, opportunity to sing in front of a large crowd and to see, you know, the effects of my voice. Like they didn't see me, but they heard my voice and her performance and the effect of both of those things together. You know, it was a great, you know, get a little choked up, so I gotta tell you. But anyway, it was a great, you know, because when I go down these rabbit holes with you, that brings back memories. But yeah, that was when I realized this is something I really, really want to do. So fast forward, me and Cynthia developed our own band called Shiny Asha. And we were both great writers. We both, we were classically trained. We would go out and sing in Italian, like Coddle Meal Ben, at weddings.

12:06 We'd make it some serious money. So then we said, hey, let's make a band. So we held auditions at the college. CUNY College. What did you call that again? BMCC. We met a lot of girls. We had three different girls, but Cynthia and I were consistent. We were writing the songs. We were arranging the songs. We ended up getting a recording contract offer. And we were performing all over the city. And the Nation of Islam was kind of like our managers for that time. They were really protecting us and getting us some great shows. We performed to all the hotspots. And we won so many contests. But then, you know, life changes. And I ended up getting a recording contract with the a brother named Jovan Armstrong, who he was working with Cynthia and I on some tracks. And he's a big house music producer. He did set it off with Strakes. And he's also very popular on his own. He's very big overseas. And he worked with Sweet Sable and Love So Special and all of those songs. So he and I had started writing some stuff when we did a song together that I wrote called Black Power on gold -tone records.

13:14 That was my first... Signed deal on an independent label with Joe Vaughn and straight in that was that out of the I guess New York area. Yeah records, okay gold -tone records and That song came it was it was in you know rotation overseas and it still is You know, but I'm under a pseudonym on that record. Like I told you my nickname is nerdy So I wasn't sure if I liked my voice So I said listen, my name is on the credits as a writer, but I want my I'm trying this for you is that I'll be new name and I found out later in life. It was a hit I just learned that like maybe like five years ago I Google the song and I went on YouTube and I saw it was up there and I haven't made a dime for many of that music anything and When I saw it and I started reading the comments a lot of the comments were in different languages Italian French and they were all talking about oh bueno this voice and all these great things they love Giovanni look like wow wow yeah fast forward um my brother uh is in the in the service i ended up getting a recording contract after that with uh TVT records. Mm -hmm. Just later I met a friend another friend of mine that I met at the junior high school at the gifted and talented junior high school mind you milk is milk Kirk Robinson was my classmate, you know milk is chili kids. We were friends We've been

14:44 all the SP class. We were some smart kids smart and gifts kids. Yeah He ended up getting a deal right when we graduated in high and he got his deal in high school But I wasn't there yet. So here in years later Get a deal with TVT Records and I'm up there You know Steve Gottlieb signed me I was originally I had presented myself as a group because I was too scared to do it on my own But I had written all of these songs at home. I produced them at home on my double dual cassette player Couldn't find the song the music that I wanted for the songs I was writing I was working with producers that I knew go to the house be in the shower singing, you know mp3 players they play some drums and we would make some great music but um Got deals, but it was always a conflict with the label just trying to get my sound out They was always about right making me sexier or you know getting this other writer or something like that So give you an idea of what some of the experiences I had at TVT I was the only female only black female artist signed to TVT my label mates at the time were Gil Scott Heron Nine -inch nails Trent Reznor.

15:51 So I was honored to be there, you know And so many people, since I was the only black girl walking around, they were trying to figure out who was I, what was I doing, what did my music sound like. So the benefit of being in a label like that is like you get leverage from music from all kinds of people that are like platinum producers. So I was looking through some of my catalogs recently because now I'm finishing up this album. I kind of wanted to revisit some of my music and get it. I remind myself who I am. You know because I took 20 years off to raise my daughter 26 years and um To come back into this now, uh, it's just like I had to like really get okay i'm gonna do it I can do it i'm gonna get back into it. I've been wanting to put my music out We're gonna do it and I came across some tracks that were sent to me At that time because they would send me envelopes yellow envelopes in the mail overnight them to me to my apartment in Brooklyn and I would open it up and be all these cassettes from different producers that heard my demo that I wrote and they wanted me to try their songs so two of the great producers that Reached out to me at TVT records that sent me some music. The first one was Vincent Herbert Yep, he was did a lot of stuff for Tony and team when I'm other mates. Oh, this is the thing He sent me a cassette tape with all these songs and they were good songs I remember listening to him and say, okay And I think I chose one song to write to though He had written he had the lyrics and everything, but he had sent me the instrumentals But he named them all on the

17:23 cassette. I just put the cassette back. It's in the room and On the cassette is one song that I declined. And that song ended up being a big, big, big platinum hit years later. And it's Destiny's Child. No, no, no, no, no. I just didn't think it was for me. It just wasn't in my vibe. I like it. But I'm just so, I'm specific. I'm like, nah, I can't get on. I can't see myself. No, no, no, no. You know what I mean? It wasn't meant for them. And I know it was for me, you know? So, and on top of that, Steve wasn't really big about me using my budget. He was really, you know, I gotta thank him because He he helped me a lot. He pushed me out out there and gave me some opportunities that you know He made me a legitimate artist and he told me I am a producer He's the one that told me he said you don't need these guys that are charging all this extraordinary money for these these tracts He said they're taking advantage of you and a lot of a lot of producers did take advantage of me They used my studio time when I wasn't there some hit records are out right now that recorded on my studio budget Yeah, like I'm not gonna name no names.

18:25 I'm not gonna bring up your bad stuff. I'm happy for them I'm happy for them. I blessed them. Okay, that was a blessing But now I feel like you know, it's my turn to get blessed back, you know, I never beefed about it Steve told me about what was going on but you think you know when you're young like that you think everybody else's has it under control all you got to do is worry about your music and you got to be when you're an artist in this industry you really got to be involved, you know, and I lost my my mojo when I started getting focused on my music because what Steve did he said um he didn't want me taking music from Kanye he didn't want me paying him no 30k he didn't want me paying Vincent no extra amount of money he told me he was gonna take that money he said I'm gonna put you in the studio we're gonna get you an engineer that knows how to play some instruments and you are gonna develop your own music he said you are a producer he said I believe in you he said you believe in yourself and I was like oh my god I was like you know this is what I've always wanted so okay and um I did it I was able to develop my song closer which came out last November 11 11 and I wrote that song over 30 years ago And I just didn't know technology has allowed me to be able to produce my own is the same way as to do in a double cassette player but now I can add the instruments I want to add and put my own my own vocals on it and mix it and master it, you know and I was able to do all of that. I was able to do a bunch of demos. I was able to keep my masters. Listen, at the end of the day, I don't need my masters because, you know, I'm redeveloping anyway. I'm keeping the consistency of who I am, but I'm using my own music. If I had done

19:58 that then, my music, I wouldn't have seen one royalty. I saw my first royalty, a life ever. I think I got $11 in my whole life in music. 22 dollars Yes, I Saw the best check I've ever seen in my life in a month after releasing my own music From all over the world calling me asking me to do drops I did it with the first week it dropped I did like six drops for like Italy And like six for UK and they were calling me saying where have I been? I'm like, how do you know me? And they were reaching out to me, said, do you sing Love Thoughts? Now Love Thoughts is a song that was on a compilation while I was at TVT, one of my first demos that I wrote. And it was produced by Will Fulton, who was one of my A &Rs and also a producer. And he's the reason why I ended up at TVT because he was going to Sarah Lawrence College. My friend introduced me to him. We can hit it off. He liked my sound.

20:58 I was doing reggae. You know, I'm like all over the place. You know, I do reggae. And my family is like, we're mutts. We just, it's like most Caribbean, but my family loves to dance. We love music. you know and it's just music is the life of my family and uh my uncles used to be in the playing the bongos when i was a kid in the middle of the living room at my aunt's house you know we just were vibrant people so i'm just um i just love music and i just take any opportunity that will come to me so later on while i'm at sign at tv t my cousin he had started kind of helping me out watching my back because the industry was crazy. I don't even want to get into all the crazy stories because I can take you down a hole we don't want to go. We'll keep the love in my soul. I get that. I do want to ask this though. How long were you on TBT as far as we know? Oh, I was on TBT for about four and a half years. And how were you able to get off of it?

21:51 Huh? How were you able to get off the label? Well, one day, see what happened was when Steve heard my music, the demo that I had done on my own, he loved it. And I had had my friend, the friend that introduced me to this guy. She wasn't a singer. She wasn't a dancer. None of that. But she was my friend and she was my ride or die. So I said, listen, I need a backup singer. I said, I'd rather be a group. I said, they got TLC, they got H -Town, all of these groups. I said. We could be a group. We could be a girl group. I said, I'll carry it. I said, you ain't got to worry about nothing. I will carry it. And she's like, OK. She dropped out of Wilberforce University and went on the road with me. I love it. And one day we went to Florida. I remember one day we were sitting in my living room and I had just wrote this song called Me and You.

22:33 And I had wrote it for her because she had such a crush on Dino from H -Town. We were watching BET music videos at my apartment. And I was like, oh, Knocking the Boots came on. I was like, that is bad. I was like, oh, I'll be looking at them. They look good. That's some good looking bros. They on Luke Records? And at that time, Luke Records was known for other stuff. And I was like, well, that's pretty cool. He has an R &B group. I said, you know what? And she was just so into Dino. I said, you know, I'm going to call them. I said, I'm going to call the record label. She said, what you going to do? How you going to call it? Because I had an attorney. I already had an attorney, her name was Jill Perlman. She was an amazing attorney. I was already in talks with TVT at this time and they were ready to sign me. I had spoken to Russell Simmons because my sister was friends with him. She gave me an opportunity to call him. You know what he said to me? He said, what makes you think I should sign you? And he was nice about it.

23:20 I got to give it to him. He was like, he was nice enough to get on the phone with me. And he said, listen, I know you can, he said, you may be talented. You may be all of that. He said, but what merits you? to just think that I should sign you right away. You got to put in some work. I was like, you know what, that's okay. I'll prove it to you. And, you know, I don't remember much about that conversation. The fact that my sister was able to make it happen, you know, because she's, my sister's been in the industry. She works in the fashion industry. She used to represent Naomi Campbell. She used to have her own agency under John Casablanca called. It was like a division of elite models and then she went on to work with Wilhelmina models as a director. But she just knew certain people and you know, my sister's like, she always wanted me to do the hard work myself. She never wanted to give me nothing. That's you that work, you know, it's I'll introduce you but I tell me you won't give you nothing She comes back she said see I told you you could do it just for yourself you could do it So, um, anyway after that I went I told my friend I'm gonna call Luke and I looked up the floor I looked it up. I found the number to Luke records and I called them up And I said hi said my name is uh, I forgot I think I told him my name was jill pilgrim my mother my attorney's name And I said and my client is uh in the middle of some negotiations. She has some great music that's coming out She's getting some uh leverage in the industry here in new york. She's going to be in miami this weekend And uh, we wanted to see she's interested in meeting with you and

24:51 letting you hear some of her music She hasn't made a decision on what label she's going to be on her and her she has a she's a group and I remember speaking to the receptionist and she said, oh, let me get somebody for you. And she got the head A &R and his name was Manny. And Manny got on the phone. He's very kind. He said, hello. And he listens to me. He said, sure, yeah. He's like, what's her name? I said, her name is Kim Swain, but the name of the group is none other. And he was like, OK, when will she be in town? And I told him, he said, OK, when she staying? And I said, she's going to be staying near the airport. We found a hotel, the budget tell. We said it's going to be near the budget tell. and he said all right well just let me know when you get in town we'll set up a meeting and you know we'll go from there so we got off the airplane i called him i said listen um i'm in town um my name is kim he said yeah kim listen oh what's your schedule where you staying i said i'm staying at the budget tell he said well listen go get yourself settled and let's set up a meeting for first thing tomorrow morning get up there man me and my friend we put on all we do we fly Like we was like Foxy brown flower bell bottom I had legs and she had a Nice figure so she was the long pants and I was short version with the denim jacket or ripped up. It was like 19 I'd say 93, 94, maybe not even that, like 91, 92.

26:15 And we'd get up there and everybody's looking at us coming through. We were scared. They thought we were thugs. They thought we were tough. Because even though we were smiling and cute or whatever, it was like, these girls are crazy. So we'd get up in there and Banny comes out and gets me to get in his office and he tells me how much he loves mommy. And my demo was by no means of great quality. Okay, it was the roughest you could have a dead on beat but they met with me on on a strength of I could write and Harmony and the effort that I put in to double -decking double -decking that recording to speed it up and mix it the way I did He went down the hall and he came back and he was gone for a while and while he was down the hall and I told you my friend had a crush on Dino. So he says have a seat.

27:12 He told her she could sit behind his desk. He had all these papers and stuff, itineraries on his desk. My friend, she was spinning around in his chair and she was like this to the sheets on the thing. She saw H -Town's picture so she act like she made a mistake and moved the papers and it was their whole itinerary. Andrea they were coming to town that night. Yeah I'm not sneaky like that. So she said she took the information we got on Manny came back in the office He said y 'all all right, we said we could he said well listen Here's what's up. He said, Mr. Campbell likes you. He likes you a lot. He likes your sound. He said, but he can't work with you with that quality. He said he wants you to go back in the studio into a real studio and re -record it and then come back. And he wants to see what he can do with you at that point. I said, OK, you got to tell me twice. I said, I'll do it while I'm here. I said, I'll find a studio while I'm here. And he said, you something else. He said, you can do that. He said, you want me to go back to New York? I said, no, while I'm here, I'll get it done. I'll get two in a week. And he said, okay, he didn't believe me. So my friend, she didn't have to do nothing but be mischievous.

28:23 We get back to the hotel and she looks up the Romada hotel, the Romada. She calls them and we looked on the back of the album cover to find out their real names. And she calls the hotel and goes, yeah, can I speak to Dino Kata? And they put him through, they put him through. She gets home and acts like she knows this man. And he go, who this girl? Girl, I don't know you. And hung up on her. Mm -hmm. So I was like, oh my god She's saying the phone was like three minutes and then he hung up on it because they were getting a lot of groupies So I said we just laughed that night and just laughed and we then I found a studio I made some calls in New York and one of my godbrothers He had a friend who had a son out in Hollywood in Florida who had a little studio in the garage And I said I'll pay him I'll pay him a hundred dollars if he can help me just do these three songs And they all I need to do is loop it And um, you know have a mic and be able to do some effects. He said all right So I went out there paid my hundred dollars. I got it done three days later. I called Manny I said, hey Manny, he picks up the phone right away. He goes. Hey kill me. How you doing?

29:26 He was so happy to you know, he was so happy to hear from me. I said, I'm great I was like listen, I got that done. I just want to know when I can drop it off I got to leave back to New York because I extended my stay a little bit my American Express was I heard you caught the hotel the other night. I said no, that wasn't me. That was my friend That was her and he said, oh, wait a minute. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on next I know hit a phone rumbling and somebody gets on the phone. They go hello and I say, yeah Hello, he said who's this? I said, this is Kim. He's all hey Kim. This is the Shazam And he goes, I'm doing good. We had a normal conversation.

30:11 And he was going, we talked about 20 minutes. My friend was in the other room of the hotel. And when she heard me talking to Shazam, she came in the room like, just like, what? How did that happen? I'm like, yo. So I'm just talking to him and talking to him. I said, so listen, we need to get together. I said, can you meet up? Want to go to Grand Prix? Go a little race car driving or something? Anything not in the hotel room. He's like now my manager's not gonna let me do that. You know, I was up with you He said that he's won't you come to the hotel. I said, I'm not coming to the hotel I said I'll come get you I got a rental car as if you want to come out in the rental He said well, they got like a game room and you can come out we can go in the game room I said, all right, no, no fishy business. No, no, no We get to the hotel, I go get him. He comes out, we both, all three of us, go sit in my rental car. I play all my music. Had a great conversation. He was getting ready to go on tour with TLC and SWV. Now me and Coco were in Hal Jackson together. Coco was the one that reminded me. Just out of the blue, I'm in the audience doing camera work, and Coco goes, Kimberly, Kim! And I'm like, I forgot.

31:18 We were like friends. We used to eat lunch. This is never who people grew up to be. She actually because of cocoa. I was doing some work at the essence festival one year I didn't have any money these people wanted to come in and film for them for a magazine I asked my daughter's dad to lend me a little cash and when I got there Coco remembers me and out of a room of about 150 people Publications she points me out and then after that she takes me to the back and gets me my own booth with essence And then I was able to have free rate with whoever I wanted. So again, it's all about showing up. I think and I've been one of those people that always had a little bit of anxiety when it came to using my voice. I've always been creative, but I just never knew. I just never wanted the stardom. I don't want people wanting to know me because of who I know or what money I have or because I'm around these people that people deem uh special or stars and everything because that happens even as a you should know like even as a host of a radio show or just being a person people want to gravitate to you because of your access and um yeah that is true yeah they want your access you know try to be your friend and they oh how can i help you that ends up you helping them yeah exactly yeah they try to play that role like they really try to help you but they're not helping you because i'm like first of all this is uh I didn't really have

32:48 to ask a lot of questions. You just ravaged the story. So I loved it. A whole lot of different things in there. One I did want to talk about is like, OK, so what's your lawyer? Were you ever mad at your lawyer or whatever? Because I'm like, you're only receiving so much money for royalties or whatever, and they're supposed to be looking out for you. OK. Again, how blessed I am. How blessed I've been. My lawyer, I used to work for her. And my mother, I told her she was an accountant, and she was an accountant for a law firm on Park Avenue in Manhattan. And just as a precaution, me and my sister, because we became latchkey, my sister's like, there's four years between us. And I was the youngest.

33:29 My brother was off in Europe. My older sister was married. And it was just me, my mother, and my sister living home at that time. And my mother worked. So the way she kept an eye on us is my sister started working at that job. We would go there after school and work for about four or five hours and come home with my mom. We would do reception, paralegal work, anything the lawyers needed us to do. We'd get dressed up. And again, I have cash in my pocket. Go shopping. While I was working there, my mother said there's a new black attorney. She was so excited because it was an old Jewish firm. A new black attorney at that firm at that time was huge. She was the first black person to ever be at that law firm. And this law firm was like 100 years old. Okay, they had worked, they would work with people at the Holocaust, the Metzger's and all of those folks. They were managing their money, getting it back from Hitler and all of that stuff, you know? Don't you know you would make you were dealing with their kids at this time? They did their kids who will spoil brats living off of the the money half of them was like strung out or Money all the time from these estates. So Jill Pilgrim was is her name. She came in there She at that time she was representing Spike Lee She was representing Jackie Joyner, Kersy a lot of the Olympians her hurt and I would be in their office just she would tell me to go look up stuff my mother Got in my ear one day, she said, I need you to start working with Jill a little bit more. She said, get to know Jill. She's like, you know, she's going places. She's going places.

34:52 So I was like, okay, ma. So whenever Jill needed something, I would say, sure. As soon as I get off the switchboard, I'll come and see you, do whatever you need. So she, one day. She started having these clients come up and I would be at the reception area and I remember this call came in Hello, can I speak to Joe program? I'm so sure it was me ass was calling Charlie Brown or Charles Brown. I thought that was funny I was like Charles Brown's is that your real name if you say yes, ma 'am, and I was like, okay, so I put him through Come to find out, it was leaders of the new school. They were getting ready to be signed, and Jill was about to sign them. So Charles, he used to be the one that always came to the office, him and the other guy. I forget his name. But those two from the group, they always came in and dealt with the paperwork. The day that they signed their deal, that's the big buster came in. And I had never seen Buster before I think I meet some once before but they were in the reception area because it was like a I was behind a booth in the glass and they had to sit on the couches and wait till the lawyer came out to get them so I'll let you know everybody from the group was there and Buster comes up to the window with his dreads up the top of his head He said something nice to me real sweet real really fun, and I was just laughing and he said yo I'm about to be ready. We're about to be large and he told me he's about to blow up He was like you wait and see and he was just telling me I was like, okay. Okay. Okay, so I just remembered that day and then sure enough the next week I say So next thing I know What

36:27 had happened when I got that thing going with TVT Records, I had told Jill about what happened when I went to Miami and that my friend had introduced me to TVT. She knew about Steve, she knew about TVT. She said, okay, we need to come in my office and have a meeting. She said, when you get off, before you go home, let's come meet in my office. And she told me, okay, Kim, we have the contracts that they all signed. So I had the contracts in my book bag. I said here's the contract from TVT. She said wow. She said okay. She said this is good She said what about your friend? I said she doesn't have an attorney or anything. He said she's gonna have to get one She said because your interests are different than hers. You know, you're a producer. You're a writer. You're an actress You're all of these things. You've always been doing it She said but she doesn't have any goals. So she said you're gonna need to talk to her She said because she can't be in the meetings with us and she said and another thing when you asked how I afforded her She did it for me pro bono And she was amazing. I messed that up. Okay After three years and we bought a year and a half into negotiations and Steve they went all my publishing 99 % of my publishing 99 % of my but he knew I wrote all my music and that's why sometimes I think maybe he just didn't want nobody else because he couldn't get to publish it, you know, yeah, so Listen, he's an attorney. He was that was his that was his uh, that's his game, right? So she wasn't having it and he just everybody's always come call me from the label telling me yo The a &r will be calling me talking about steve's in the office with my uh My attorney where'd you get that attorney? How are you able

37:58 to afford such an attorney? That lady is good. Oh my god Did you know she signed leaders at a new school? Yo, i'm like listen my job is to let her do her job. Okay? Yeah, but you tell your lawyer what to do. I said, oh, no, I don't i'm not a lawyer I can't tell my lawyer. Why would I have her if i'm gonna tell her what to do? I tell her what my interests are And she protects those interests. That's what your lawyer does. So, um, there was this week and she had to leave town And steve was she said stay away from that label. Do not go up there And I was like, okay She said whatever you do can promise me she's they're gonna try and manipulate you and i'm worried about you She said whatever they put in your face. They will dangle something while i'm away She said don't do it They caught me to come to this event I remember hiding from steve for a while and my friends had asked me to go to the movies with them one night And one of the chances, it was a snowstorm, all right?

38:48 I had on this long coat with a hood on. We go to the movies in the village. And I kept telling everybody, they said, Kip, why you got that hood on your head? I said, listen, you just never know. You just never know what you're going to see. I didn't want them to know what I was going through. So next thing you know, we're staying on the side. And then the maitre d at the movie theater, he was talking to my friends. And I had gotten them signed to profile records, some other friends of mine. And so we were out. And so he goes, I said listen I gotta hide these two people coming out of this theater and next thing I know when I turn around who walks up but Steve Gottlieb in a fur hat with his wife and walks straight up to me and goes what are you doing here so the guy who's the major T this young black guy he's looking at wow who are you why is he talking to you like that you know like you know who's this white man coming up to me said he looks mad eccentric he looks like you know an artist in the village just like he is he looks just like what he is and he's saying What why didn't you come to the office? I've been I've been looking for you, you know He's like begging me why and the guy's looking at how he's talking about this Steve. I can't come up there I said I told you my lawyer said don't come up there as like I can't he said Kim Kim You need we need to talk. All right, no pressure.

39:56 We need to I said, okay So when he leaves he said you promise you coming I'll talk to you. So he leaves and then the guy goes who are you? Who are you? So I ended up my A &R all of them kind of coerced me to come up to the label. It was a Friday night and I'm there and I ended up signing the extension like a dummy. Against the advice of your lawyer. Against the advice of my lawyer. Never again. Never again. Broke my heart. She was kind enough. Listen, at that point she couldn't represent me anymore. And I understood that. But she was kind enough to get me another attorney. Pro bono. And he was excellent. And he ended up introducing me to some great people like Jeff Redd. Me and Jeff Redd went and sat down and had a talk. And he's one of the people who encouraged me to just focus on my writing. And from him, I wrote this song called Closer. He just kind of gave me some ideas.

40:49 He said, when you're writing, just go from your heart. And I went home that day, and I wrote this song called Tell Me How You Feel, which I also released. And I always got great response on that song. So that's why that was another song that I put out right away. But um, yeah the lesson from that is I don't care how much you want something. Don't be no okey -doke out here Don't be no dummy, you know as much as you know when somebody tell you don't do something and you got a good lawyer Don't risk it because what's on the other side? You know the short money ain't nothing don't look at the short money You know, i've been holding out for 20 years and now i'm finally seeing money period i'm getting calls from people I heard from since who knows when are you calling me now? I appreciate it, but you're calling me now to do something for me that I asked you to do years ago. You know, and I love you still, but let's just all enjoy each other and appreciate each other's success at this point, because I'm at the stage in my life where I'm going to go where I'm appreciated.

41:44 You know, people know me and what people are like, you know, interested, you know, if you're interested and you want to share this music and you're not trying to get me to sound like this, this one and that one. Let's let's do it. But other than that, I'm just really trying to stay in my lane be Kim Swain and enjoy Uh, you know the joy that I can give others if you say my music did something for that's that's amazing to me Well, another thing that makes me feel really good when I go someone people know lyrics to my song. I'm like, wow You know, I remember one time I was singing on stage in in new york And uh, we were in I was in this spot in the village And I was singing this song called here we come that I had did with some friends of mine It was all of these like young kids. They knew they weren't singing the word But yeah, there's nothing I can stress more than to just not want it so bad to you Mess up your opportunity altogether.

42:42 I like that. But I also like the fact that just in your history of your career in your story The common theme is that music lives on and it takes a life of its own. And now you're on the tell, not the tell in, but you're on the other side of where you're getting the notoriety and recognition and you're able to do what you want to do as opposed to what other people want you to do with your career and your sound and your creativity. Yes. Yes. There's so much freedom in that. Yes, there is. So with your international audience being developed and expanding now, how do you feel about that? And then where do you want that to go? Wow, I'm amazed. And I really got to thank Vic Morton from the Atlanta Jazz Players for dusting me off and letting me know that Kim. You got this you paid your dues do it, you know, because I wasn't gonna do it He ended up I was working for him doing some PR and stuff and I was encouraging him to do a show This is a massive five months. Okay, five months ago I called him and said listen, you know, I got some spots I think you guys need to do some shows that he couldn't get it some artists together.

43:51 He said Kim Why don't you do it? So he sends me a song to sing called. Don't be fooled Well, anyways when he did that put that song out because of my name you know he was saying like a lot of his song he has so much he has a huge carol they do amazing music and um he said i want to see what happens when i put your song out and we started he started seeing numbers like he said he hadn't seen before i was like really i said it must be because of the name and then next thing you know um i had got a uh email on my own facebook um asking me if i was ai or if this was really me And I was like, no, that's me. I'm a real person. That's Kim Swain They said the same Kim Swain that sings love thoughts and I was like, yeah And it was a couple of people Italy Milan Italy reached out to me a brother a guy by the name of Luciano Barry Who's a host at Discovery radio? And then a couple somebody from Japan is me so soul and they all wanted to play my music videos when to make sure I wasn't AI Yeah, and I was like this if you're the same Kim. They said listen, we don't even care It's like we're just so happy to see you back That one DJ told the next DJ because they sell my music on wax out there apparently my song love thoughts has made a lot of DJ some good money, you know, and This dude from Belgium had reached out to me about maybe 15 years ago when he found me on Facebook. He told me that I was really big over there. I was like, you have got to be kidding me. And then I saw this movie on Netflix called Searching for Sugar Man. And I don't know if you've ever seen it, but it's definitely my

45:23 story. But to some extent, whereas you could be extremely famous somewhere that, you know, TVT never put that music out, never distributed it. Definitely not overseas. It was a compilation for the industry only. My brother, I told you, he was living in Belgium. He would have parties at his flat. He was selling these. promotional CDs. It took me a while to figure out how that happened because I just never could figure it out but my brother has since passed on and I believe he is an angel up in heaven. Moving some real serious strings. Okay, and it has to be so anyway, you say how do I feel about that? I'm extremely grateful because if it wasn't for them Telling me that they appreciate my music and they look at music totally different from the USA and and how and I've always known that You know so many artists are overseas That you know soul music is late over there, you know, they kind of catch up and now the world is so Connected, you know your new music is right away.

46:20 As long as you build relationships with these people, and you're a real person, I've made so many new friends. So I'm making new friends. I was on the phone with a gentleman by the name of Bert Herges. And he's a big music historian and DJ house music guy out there. And he actually got on the phone. It was such a pleasure to talk to him. And he just kept calling me dairy and lovely and darling. And I'm ancient and I love him. And he just like made me feel so good and warm. I do not get that. You know here at home never have I mean I have my family and friends that support me They've always come to my shows in New York always support my bands and my friends in my groups, but um I never had radio play where I heard myself on the radio or I heard a DJ saying something about introducing him I mean I said let me listen to one of these guys radio shows on Christmas Day. I was home as I'm playing Just in real time. Let me play a show. All right, so I played the one in italy And all of a sudden I hear the guys talking nothing's in english.

47:18 I at least thought I would be able to hear it in english I thought you're gonna speak english i was like And then my song came on and you heard him and the lady talking back to each other And I don't know what they were talking about, but he responded to her about kim swain and then my song dropped I was like wow I was like, so it makes me feel really, really good. It makes me feel happy that people like what I'm doing because I'm producing my own and writing my own music. I don't have Vincent Herbert. I don't have Kanye West. I don't have all these other amazing producers, Babyface helping me. I have Steve in my head and I have the memories of the people that I've worked with who have coached me on my vocals and people who have been in the studio with me and heard me do my layers and heard me change my voice, whether I was singing classical, reggae, or jazz. They know my capabilities.

48:14 And overseas, they don't question that. They're like, can you sing this when you come here? Yeah, man. A mix. That was another thing about the music industry. And I heard Eric Bonet say this the other day. And I believe it was something I needed to hear. Because a lot of friends from the past that haven't been able to pursue things, their careers, if I'm not around, now that I'm back on the scene, they're trying to figure out how I'm doing it. You know who you working with we getting this money who's producing and they know I know how to put I learned to I study I worked I learned right now I'm learning the bass Okay, I'm taking bass bass guitar classes because um, I Know what I want to do. I know who I want to be. I know how I want to perform I know what I want to portray always have They're asking me. Oh, well, you know, they're bringing up all of these things about all these artists that are a and I Use technology and if you want to do something learn how to manipulate the technology for you I said there are people who are pretending to be something else I said and listen for them I have no problem with them either because some people are afraid to be them and I can I can relate to that I can relate to someone who is talented, but they're afraid of rejection They're afraid of criticism. They're afraid of people not liking them and people don't know who you are I'm not gonna put my face on the record.

49:34 It's like what you know Kim Why? Will you please? I was like, okay, I'll just put it on. Because I just wanted to see what palette would respond without people knowing it was me. But I didn't want to be an AI artist. I'm me. I'm singing. I want credit for me. I wrote those songs 100 years ago. So yeah, it makes me so happy. I'm so grateful to be able to not only that these people are finding me, they're pulling my music out and playing it. They're playing it enough that now I'm getting, they reached out, they told me and they, I gave them my bio and they went and translated it into like seven different languages. I didn't even have to ask. They told me all the DJs in the UK have my bio. Then one called me and told me, he said, Kim, I just want you to know your song is blowing up over here.

50:18 It's like not just on Starpoint. It's not just on our stations. It's playing on the radios on other stations. It's being, it's moving. And I'm like, wow. So I kind of sit back right now and I'm just kind of letting it, Let me ride. I want to let it ride. You know, I want to complete my album I want to be authentic authentic to myself until my daughter's like you gotta probably be in a rock star She's like mama, you know, she said she's a lawyer. My daughter's like a paralegal. I was like, maybe you could be an entertainment attorney But she's proud of me and I'm that's the only thing I care about because I put it all aside for her You know, I got pregnant me and Steve had a meeting one day and things just wasn't going right after he had You know, I started getting tired You know, he was turning down because you know, you kind of do want to work with other people, you know at the same time and I wanted to explore those opportunities but At that time he just wasn't he just thought that I could do it on my own. So I remember one day I just I had a block I had writer's block for a while and I was I think it was because I was pregnant and You know, I just kind of needed some rest and I remember I was going up there to tell him I was ready to leave Yeah, and when I got to his office, he said Kim, how you feeling?

51:35 And I thought so listen Steve. I'm pregnant and I'm tired and I don't know what's going on I'm not happy because I had to break up with the girl my friend. There's a big story that happened with that and I'm gonna leave it Because it involves some things that are going on in the world right now in the media And she was one of the people that were affected and that's why she and I had that's I said no No, I didn't go. Yeah, but she went and she ended up, you know, that's when those fafos And to this day she's not well, you know, and i'm very close with her family um, but I I it scared me and I started seeing what kind of people I was around what kind of things that would be asking me I started getting letters from brothers in prison in california But it was kind of crazy around that time. And again, I was at a label that also had Ja Rule, Earth Gotti, all those guys, they had my back, but I just didn't, Steve saw me as different. You know, I wasn't urban and I'm still not considered urban. I am diverse. And that's why I say I just didn't I want to be put in a box. I can sing and have fun and I can be creative. I was even rapping. I did some rap. It's an amazing rap song with a friend of mine named Tucker, the Hunter man, who's a rapper. He was on profile records. But again, I grew up listening to like Carly Simon, James Taylor. You know, Where Earth Went in Fire, Confunction, Aretha Franklin. I

53:05 mean, it goes on and on and on. My father loved David Sanborn. And, you know, we had all kinds of music. Ralph McDonald. So that was me and my father's special thing to do together. Whenever I bought music from Columbia House, he would come and take all my cassettes. He would come over. Did you get a new stock? Let me listen to them first. and then he just kind of and I would get in his truck and he'd have all of these cassettes. I got a new one for you and a Fleetwood Mac. We just loved it. We would just go on long drives to he had a um He had a antique store in Connecticut. And I just used to love driving with my dad. You know, even though I was growing at this point, it just was so special to be in a car with him, quiet, listening to music in the snow, driving up to his store, his house.

53:48 We would stop and get some steak and some wine. And, you know, my dad just have a good time, you know, look through some books. He would just talk about my dad used to make these little horses. He was one of the most creative people on earth. And I just so misunderstood. But I know that he's up there. As well Because he did what he did to protect me from something that he didn't believe in ended up Creating some real hardcore skills for me, you know put me in in the Baptist Church My aunt said are you gonna sing with us? And you know, she's what she's long gone. She's another one that's up in heaven pulling strings Yeah, a lot of these people. So yeah, I don't want to disappoint my ancestors, you know, I definitely get it You're only like your second career now, um, I'm gonna make it my first, you know A lot of people didn't want me to get back into is like, oh Kim, you know this industry or whatever But I don't care if I'm in the industry.

54:58 I don't I just want to put the music out It's something like right doing a puzzle at home when I'm home alone Get in my room. I got my little studio in my bedroom of my I was doing media for people So everybody kept saying to me because they weren't paying me They were everybody will call me do these a big big gigs for them and I get them all of this Leverage, I mean I'm good at what I do and I do that, you know, and I do know some folks But folks just don't want to pay You know, they always want to do innocent. I understand. I'm very I'm not a nonprofit organization, but I was about to become one if I stayed on that route. Yeah. Okay. I'm not a nonprofit for profit. So I got hurt a lot in the last two years. I had been through some really, I mean, I tell you, the last two years of my life were hard, hard. My daughter is doing fantastic. And I put, I sacrificed so much so she could be where she is and doing what she's doing. She's amazing.

55:53 But you know, at the end of the day, now I had to get my life straight. For so many years I was doing everything. She was my motivation. Yeah, you know, so now this is my motivation I'm able to get back, you know, God gave me a second chance. He said you did your work. You did a good job And that's I gotta thank Vic for that, you know Do you think you ever get to the point of where you'll probably bring others on up under your wing or you're too much like? where you're a house form or you know, media or whatever, you know, because you have a diverse set of skill set. Yeah. Well, that is something that, you know, I had to create my own record label. And I've always wanted to have like a school or a program for children, especially since I'm in a music program. Growing up, we had the best music programs in music in Brooklyn, in New York.

56:47 Um, and I used to see african dancers come to the school indian dancers so much inspiration Of giant puppets used to come to the school. I mean things are just like blow your mind And it gave me so much imagination my mother I was trying to mention this earlier when I told you she embraced all of our creativity I remember when I was a little girl the first time I came out came into character for something Me my mom used to be home alone together Right, so I must and I remember this very clearly everybody my family knows the story everybody remembers it then we laugh about it to this day because it's My mother my father used to always talk about over and over you could be 55 and they would bring it up And uh, I remember my mom used to make lunch and breakfast for me after my brothers and sisters would leave You know, she would drive them to school and then me and her would come back to the house She would play Diana Ross and the Isley brothers in the car and I would be listening to them on the eight track now green And I used to love bottle fools fall in love.

57:40 So, um, when I would get back to the house, I would go into my bedroom, get my mom's wig and, uh, put on one of her dresses, put the wig on, get my dolls, get the microphone. And then she would yell out lunchtime or breakfast, you know, come and get it. And I would come down the hall cause we had this huge apartment in Crown Heights. I would go into the kitchen and I remember the first time she saw me with my wig and my makeup and she told me, she said, well, who is this? Hi. I said, I am the lady from the Pinocchio show. And she embraced it right away. It was in practice. It wasn't something we ever did before. And I said, I'm the lady from the Pinocchio show. And the fact that she asked me who I was she respected the fact that I was pretending to be someone else And I did not want to be called my nickname, right? Yeah, and i'm gonna have my pocketbook and I sat down at the table like I used to watch sesame street So I was a character and I was sitting there and she would say okay She did everything like she was a waiter or waitress.

58:38 She said would you like some hot dogs with those eggs? Yes, please and we did the whole thing. So that became my routine Every time I came in the kitchen for lunch or breakfast. Hello lady from the Pinocchio show What's going on at the Pinocchio show today? Are you having any shows? She would embrace it was lovely. It was lovely She never can it wasn't until I took the wig off that I was nerdy or Kim again and um We joked about my mom has passed about five years ago, but we joked about it. Even in her last days, I was with my mom. I was with her when she died. You know, I missed it by an hour. I had made it there late. But I got to say goodbye to her the night before. You know, it was hard times, but it was fun times. So yeah, I mean, I definitely want to help other people because I think it's so important when children are young. to tap into who they are right then. Because if you don't listen, you have to listen. My daughter made sure I listened to her. And I mean, there'll be times I'll be running around telling her to stop and listen to me. And I would just have to listen. And I think children, so many children will have that. It's such a wonderful thing when you, it makes me cry. It gets me emotional when I see children. use their creativity and they see somebody else that appreciates it, whether it's art, whether it's singing or playing an instrument, when they see somebody love it, they get, it's a smile that you can't, or even if you just smile at a child. Lately, the other day, I don't know what's going on, but a lot of little kids been like coming up to me out

1:00:09 of nowhere, like all races. I was in the mall the other day and I walked into a shoe store. That's just kind of walked in real quick looking for what I was and this little boy was in a stroller cute little Italian kid He was adorable and his father is his mother and his grandmother. So as soon as I walked in the door, he said hey He goes ma 'am ma 'am like he doesn't do that, you know, he's calling He just started smiling. He's just smiling at me. I said, you know, you're just too cute. I said, well, thank you for talking to me. I said, I'm so glad. I said, how are you today? And me and this kid, father, nobody else is involved in the conversation. It's just me and the spirit of this child, this energy of this child having this conversation. It was just, I was like, wow. And I said, well, I hope you're having a good day. He said, yeah, yeah. And it was like an old soul that remembered me. And I said, well, it was, I'm so glad I saw you.

1:01:09 It made my day. I said, I hope you have a good day, OK? And he said, OK. And he just kept smiling. I said, all right, well, I'm going to leave now. I said, I love you. And he said, I love you, too. And the father was like, he's just smiling. He said, well, ma 'am, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. And I'm like, what was that about? And then even the people from the store are looking at me like. Wow, Miss Kim, because they know me at the store, I got to go to get my shoes. And they said, Miss Kim, wow. And it just got quiet after that. And it happened to me the other day in Publix, another little kid in a stroller was just waving at me and saying how I'm trying to get my attention. So I take that because I believe children are connected to God and spirit a lot closer than we are. The older we get, sometimes we get further away. from that holy part of ourselves, that genuine, authentic, youthful, loving spirit.

1:02:00 And I think that's, you know, God and angels telling me, we love you, you're doing all right, you know? So yeah, I'm very, that's something I do want to do. I do want to help people with that, but only serious folks. You know, I'm told I made my mistakes, so I know. And I'm a grown woman. And if you show me you're mature and you know, you went I would I will go all out But that is something I'm definitely, you know looking to do in the future. I want to pursue artist development You know, that's a big thing that we don't have a lot of a lot of artists think they could put a song out and just go, you know What do you think about like artists develop it, you know, do you think is gonna make a resurgence and come back? I've worked with a lot of artists and PR and I've worked with artists development artists But again, you know because sometimes if you don't listen, you know If you do if you're a one -shot pony and you're not consistent with your development and you're not putting any effort into Developing your craft yourself without me telling you what you need to do. Then I have to question Well, you know, is there gonna be more work for me, you know, because I want artists who are really Tell me what they want and I'm like, okay I'm gonna help you with that. We're gonna we're gonna cultivate that we're gonna You know, you're gonna be able to do that like like that. That's what you want to do We're gonna do it. But if you don't have an idea that I can say, you know, i've had my friend She's a makeup artist and she said she had some auditions because she has a company that she does She needs more artists to go and do other gigs because she's getting all these jobs So she's looking for real

1:03:31 professionals and she mentioned to me the other day that um, a young lady came in and she was cursing out the door when she came in so you know something you got to think about when i have you around with the people you know with my and my clients are you going to be using that sort of if you don't have respect enough for me to not use that kind of language then what are you going to do when i put you in front of my clients so it's just things like that or you know if you come in here low energy you know like hey you know i'm not asking you be jumping around doing cartwheels but at least show me you excited about you exactly they're coming here all depressed and everything and messing up the mood and stuff i'm like yeah so those are things i definitely want to do this is up now you have uh one of this has been a fantastic story in all the different highlights the roller coaster ride you've experienced i think somehow you should be able to put into some type of project whether it be like a documentary or something because you have so much history and there's so much written richness to it but People keep asking me to write a book as a matter of fact, they want me to have a book Comprised with the album, you know, I'm afraid to write a book I Don't want to be a part of the narrative, you know, but at the end of the day things like what my lawyer You know, I've been I've had four recording contracts. I've been with slash records. I've been under gold -tone records I've been with TV team and then a couple of years back I did like an independent project as a compilation album with Sony, but this is my first opportunity

1:05:02 to do it my way To be the person I want to be to tell the stories I want to tell the way I want to tell them to the music that I like that makes me that Represents me. Um, and I might be all over the place. But guess what? That's me That is me So that's yeah I'm like even even with that though. Just that is accomplished man itself. You've been able to give sign four times This was by here came against I once I'm like that in itself, just talking about that, you know, and just mentioning it is accomplishment. The word, yeah, four different entities saw the value in you as an artist to be able to sign you and, you know, do things with you and work with you when there's a lot of them that don't even, you know, get to that point or, you know, have the fortitude to be able to get there, you know, because I'm like, it takes a lot to get to show value for people to be signed, but. Well, everybody now it's like a lot harder and but at the same time it like me I'm able to do it, you know You have things like you can do your own distribution to things like distro kid You have programs like Suno where you can give them create your own music and your own echoes and your own effects on your voice and things like that Oh, you guys was right and saying, you know, and you don't really have to do they have all kinds of resources nowadays But at the end of the day as an artist, um, you know a label or independent or a major they don't want somebody

1:06:33 really that they have to do artist development with anymore not a lot of the major leagues they have kind of cut that program out barry gordy is the only one in the best that did it You would really have to seek out opportunities like what people like, you know, have a friend Angelo L .A .P. who's like the best in the business of artist management and public relations. He's represented. He still to this day represents Dionne Warwick. He's represented Stephanie Mills. Oh, the great Luther Vandross. And he's one of my mentors. And he's one of the people that also encouraged me and believed in me, but mostly in media. And he would send a lot of his clients to me, Tawatha Aji, who sings Juicy Fruit, an amazing woman, an amazing artist. She's a good friend. she has motivated and supported me from behind the scenes. And when somebody like that tells you, Kim, you got it. I'm like, thank you.

1:07:17 I need to hear from nobody else now. I'm good. You're going to download it. I'm good. Yeah, you know, I'm blessed to know a lot of great people. I've been blessed to be in a lot of rooms, hear a lot of things. But, you know, I'm like, my family used to call me down, you know, because I retain it. I retain it. And I remember. That's why my brother used to make sure he could he didn't tell me too much and you better not tell because I tell yes I'm not gonna lie my mother asked me a question. I gotta tell her mom's gonna smack me if I don't open my mouth But I retain everything I learned but I just always want to be a quality person that I don't want to put nothing bad out You know, I want my image. I'm not perfect. I'm not trying to be perfect But I want to be someone that people can relate to like I said children My friend told me the other night her kids was in the living room dancing to my song. I'm like that That's wonderful. Okay, it's wonderful So, um, those are the type that's the kind of energy I want, you know, it's kind of energy people I want around me. I don't like toxicity now. I can't be getting no arguments Nobody the people crazy. I got time for that.

1:08:26 See you later And like so that's what it's all about Okay, let everybody know how can a you know the look you up listen any other thing that you want them to be directed to Well right now you can find my music of on any platform. It's on Spotify YouTube Apple music being played on I heart radio You can download it. You can buy it on Apple music My album is going to be released in the spring. Okay, I'm working on March. We're almost done halfway there and what else of the video we're editing the video for closer right now um that's something working with john nalls who's an amazing uh producer a video producer and cameraman out here in in atlanta who's a great friend and uh carla lamar was the creative director assisted me on my um my vision and uh hannah ali she did my makeup Um some great people that i've known that i've that really came through for me And so you can look out for that. Hopefully we'll have that video out by the end of next month if not before And then I have some new music dropping this week. We just dropped uh, uh, you say which was written and produced by me Um, and that bass line, uh, is very special to me because it is my friend shah harry playing who is no longer with us So, um, I just i'll dedicate that song to him because me and him to spend a whole whole lotta cold evenings in

1:09:57 East New York, developing songs, writing and him playing the bass or listening to somebody doing, put a drum and, you know, that was years ago and he's come back in spirit. I know he's another angel pulling strings, okay? Because that song is doing great over there. So yeah, that's pretty much, you can follow me. My Instagram is at Kate Kim Swain. I spell it K -Y -M -S -W -A -I -N and that's Facebook. uh anything i'm not on i'm not on x or tiktok yet i'm just not a tiktoker so much effort you say master a couple platforms anyway and then you know i'm gonna make work way up from it so yes i'm just i'm letting the music ride but um that that's how you can reach me and um yeah i really appreciate you andres for taking time to have this conversation to be interested in having a conversation yeah like i said i love the story that you're telling like there was so many of them whatever and i know there's more Some of them, we may just have to have a party one night and I take you over to the corner and tell you the other stories because I don't know, I want people calling me.

1:11:04 Y 'all make sure y 'all go, y 'all follow KissWay and look out for all her stuff. And as always, y 'all can keep up with the platform. And any exclusives that we do drop will be on Apple for all our subscribers. Keep following us on social media, Bank That Underscore Radio Underscore Show on Instagram and Bank That Radio Show on Facebook. Thank you, babe. I appreciate it. Thank you.